DUST Search - An Argument for Giving CP for Battle Completion

General Mosquito wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

So your argument against it is that it is unnecessary..?

It isn't about a corporation needing every member to making their 1000 CP contribution so much as players who want to do more for their corporation than -just- the 1000 CP contribution. If they're going to do it anyway, why not just make it easier for them to do so than try and dissuade them and create even more alts in the game?

And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission.

Things like Vehicle Kill Assists, which basically -require- teamwork in order for a player to complete, IMO aren't daily missions - but even still that isn't what this thread is discussing and is only loosely related to it and I'd rather this thread not be derailed discussing the mechanics of daily missions.

My biggest argument against it is that by adding a CP component to completing matches promotes horrible play, like AFK'ing by a supply depot to farm CP.

Look at your corp leader and his history of imploring his players to AFK to farm SP before Uprising. You want to give that dude a license to print CP, all while destroying pub matches by reinvigorating the afk problem from the past?

Aeon Amadi wrote:

And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission.

I wanted to separate this portion for another response, because it raises interesting questions about the game as a whole.

Is dust a team/group game, or one that is amenable to solo play?

When I raised the point of team deploy for FW being detrimental to the solo player, a majority of the responses from the q sync lobby was that Dust was a team game, and should be played as such.

You and I seem to both be on the same page from reading some of your responses in that thread, but I think we are in the minority.

So if Dust is a team game, having missions that push you out of your comfort box are a good thing. Then you have a choice to either expand your horizons or not finish the mission. I choose to not even bother with hacking primary objective missions. They are not in my wheelhouse, and I don't feel like going out of my way to do them. But I make that choice, not anyone else.

I get that some people are completionists, and they absolutely must complete their daily list of tasks, and I pity those people. It must be horrible to look at a game and make it into a job because you can't accept leaving anything on the table.

10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 13:39:00 - [1] - Quote I feel that we should include Command Point accrual for match completion. Better gains for wins and worse for losses; something to earn toward corporation affairs from normal gameplay. Here's a few reasons why I think this: Obviously we have some players that don't spend aurum on this game and I don't think that should have anything to do with how much or in what way they contribute to their corporation. It is unfair to ask a player to spend aurum when it comes to how they contribute to their corporation. Some daily missions are unfavorable (destroy 15 installations) and would likely be rerolled, so we can't ask a player to spend two days worth of daily-login Aurum everytime they get a super difficult daily mission just so that they can help their corp. Daily missions like "Active Instant Booster 'x' times" are prohibitive on non-paying players and this will reflect poorly on their contributions toward their corporation - simply because they don't pay; if they don't fork up the cash then their contribution to said corp is negatively impacted. We also have players who will complete daily missions and then log on alts to farm CP - which isn't a bad thing but they shouldn't have to consign to an alt character to do that. If they're going to do it anyway, introducing CP accrual for battle completion is favorable to alt creation and farming. By introducing small CP gains for normal gameplay (match completion) we kill multiple birds with a single stone: - We encourage players to not leave matches as they get something (no matter how small) for sticking with it, regardless of the outcome. - We encourage players to use their primary character for corporate contributions rather than making a bunch of alts. - We don't unnecessarily punish non-paying players through their corporate contributions/loyalty. - We encourage more frequent activity from players as they aren't limited just by ten daily missions. - Corporations who play together frequently have more overall gains, encouraging cohesion between veterans and newer players. I'd be fine with reducing the amount of CP generation from daily missions as a result of these changes, and I didn't suggest specific values because I don't really know what values would be good to keep this sort of thing balanced by desgin. What I do know is that if a corporation wants massive amounts of CP, you can't really stop them (alt farming), so we might as well just give players the tools they need and encourage behavior we WANT rather than forcing behavior we DONT. Discuss? 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 14:00:00 - [2] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: The difference of a couple of hundred CP from leaving a given mission uncompleted is not detrimental to the game. In fact, those missions, aside from the activate a booster x times, SHOULD promote teamwork. Do you know how easy it is for the people I play with to get installation missions done? Two matches, a dozen down. Not even difficult. If your corp is small enough that you absolutely must have every member making their 1000 CP contribution, you just might need more people. People don't need a carrot to stay in matches until the end. They need balls, which CCP cannot give them. I would rather the cowards back out so I can get a blueberry who won't go afk by the ground spawn supply depot just to protect his precious CP. So your argument against it is that it is unnecessary..? It isn't about a corporation needing every member to making their 1000 CP contribution so much as players who want to do more for their corporation than -just- the 1000 CP contribution. If they're going to do it anyway, why not just make it easier for them to do so than try and dissuade them and create even more alts in the game? And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission. Things like Vehicle Kill Assists, which basically -require- teamwork in order for a player to complete, IMO aren't daily missions - but even still that isn't what this thread is discussing and is only loosely related to it and I'd rather this thread not be derailed discussing the mechanics of daily missions. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 14:01:00 - [3] - Quote jordy mack wrote: im curious as to how ppl wil try to farm these points, playing a match or two on many different alts seems more beneficial in terms of grinding for cp. but the downside is all your skills and loadouts will be different/gimpy. i would prefer that the no-lifers have to do more work and use less than optimal characters. rather than just let them stomp away in pubs 23/7. Why for? That seems unnecessarily vindictive. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 14:06:00 - [4] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: An AFK mechanic seems like a given. Will it be the existing 150 WP that is tied to SP payout in matches? As much as I hate that stupid mechanic, it might as well. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 14:18:00 - [5] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: I might also suggest a chain mechanic. Complete 1st match get 15 CP. Concurrent matches and you get 30 CP after every completed match. 'Click' leave match and you break the chain, starting back at 15 CP for a completed match. Your PS3 freezing at EoM screen, fatal errors, or manual pressing power button do not count. Clicking leave is an input action that CCP can track. Could be interesting. Would need a certain cap though to prevent unchecked gains. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 15:25:00 - [6] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So your argument against it is that it is unnecessary..? It isn't about a corporation needing every member to making their 1000 CP contribution so much as players who want to do more for their corporation than -just- the 1000 CP contribution. If they're going to do it anyway, why not just make it easier for them to do so than try and dissuade them and create even more alts in the game? And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission. Things like Vehicle Kill Assists, which basically -require- teamwork in order for a player to complete, IMO aren't daily missions - but even still that isn't what this thread is discussing and is only loosely related to it and I'd rather this thread not be derailed discussing the mechanics of daily missions. My biggest argument against it is that by adding a CP component to completing matches promotes horrible play, like AFK'ing by a supply depot to farm CP. Look at your corp leader and his history of imploring his players to AFK to farm SP before Uprising. You want to give that dude a license to print CP, all while destroying pub matches by reinvigorating the afk problem from the past? Aeon Amadi wrote: And the mission bit is argumentative logic. Yeah, in theory and on paper it should promote teamwork, but if that is the case than it should be a Corporation Mission and not a personal daily mission. Daily missions should be reasonable expectations from a single player and if they have to completely change playstyles (I.E: A tank to destroy 15 installations) or pull in help from a corp-mate than it isn't a reasonable expectation of a single person to achieve that mission. I wanted to separate this portion for another response, because it raises interesting questions about the game as a whole. Is dust a team/group game, or one that is amenable to solo play? When I raised the point of team deploy for FW being detrimental to the solo player, a majority of the responses from the q sync lobby was that Dust was a team game, and should be played as such. You and I seem to both be on the same page from reading some of your responses in that thread, but I think we are in the minority. So if Dust is a team game, having missions that push you out of your comfort box are a good thing. Then you have a choice to either expand your horizons or not finish the mission. I choose to not even bother with hacking primary objective missions. They are not in my wheelhouse, and I don't feel like going out of my way to do them. But I make that choice, not anyone else. I get that some people are completionists, and they absolutely must complete their daily list of tasks, and I pity those people. It must be horrible to look at a game and make it into a job because you can't accept leaving anything on the table. I doubt there'd be much appeal in AFKing an entire match just for a small sum of CP - especially when you don't see any instantaneous rewards for that. It isn't like ISK and SP where you get that sum to your personal assets, you can't really do anything with CP except in Planetary Conquest so the benefits of obtaining it while AFKing aren't very high, I feel. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 15:52:00 - [7] - Quote Guys... You're focusing -way- too hard on this completionist thing. This thread has absolutely nothing to do with completionist approaches to the daily missions - it is about obtaining and accruing CP AFTER completing the daily missiong or separately of it. Please try to follow along 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 16:46:00 - [8] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I doubt there'd be much appeal in AFKing an entire match just for a small sum of CP - especially when you don't see any instantaneous rewards for that. It isn't like ISK and SP where you get that sum to your personal assets, you can't really do anything with CP except in Planetary Conquest so the benefits of obtaining it while AFKing aren't very high, I feel. Right, because no corp ever abused game mechanics to get ahead. Just because you doubt that there are people who will abuse such a system doesn't mean you are not in corp run by someone who can't resist doing everything sleazy to get his people ahead. Since he already mangled pubs with his BS before, I believe that giving your corp the benefit of the doubt is not deserved. The carrot at the end of the match is already there in the form of ISK and SP. If that isn't enough of an incentive to stay in match, adding another won't change it. What it will do is open up the prospect of people deciding that once they have their WP minimum, AFKing in the ground spawn is preferable to quitting and opening up that slot for someone who might actually want to play. I would rather have a irl 2 year old who is trying versus a bitter vet who is hugging the supply depot for his precious rewards. If anything, there needs to be a stick rather than a carrot if you want to keep people in matches. Not that that would actually work, because people quit matches for all sorts of reasons, not all of them player related(I'm looking at you Gal lag facility). Dude, you gotta lay off with this sort of conspiracy non-sense. -AT LEAST- play with the dude a while before you start trying to turn him into a disney villain. I can't even be civil with you when you turn this tangent because it's just irritating. You realize how stupid it would be to sit there and AFK for twenty freaggin minutes just for a measly amount of CP? Think about the math for a second. Assuming we went with your 25 CP per match completion (which I think is even too much but for the sake of argument) you'd have to sit there and AFK for an hour and twenty minutes just to get the same amount of CP you'd get from a single daily mission. You'd be better off using alt farming. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. If you gave me the choice between AFKing for an hour and a half and logging onto an alt character and getting 10 kill assists, I'd pick up the mass driver any day. Hate to ruin your crazy "KAIN IS GONNA MAKE ALL OF NF AFK FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY" conspiracy theory. But, while we're talking about Kain, you wanna know something hilarious? As much as you villainize the guy, he got CCP to fix the PC ISK generation in a time where you literally had to go so far as getting 95% of Molden Heath and AFK ISK generating to show CCP that something was broken. But, yanno, Dark Knight quotes. And no, there should 100% definitely, positively, absolutely NOT be a 'stick' to keep people in matches. You're not going to impress anyone by punishing the players who get disconnected to stop people from leaving a match because people who are going to leave the match are going to leave it -anyway-. The only way you're going to keep them there is there is plenty of incentive with which to stay and I stand by small amounts of CP being a good start. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.12 22:23:00 - [9] - Quote General is only on point with Slippery Slope arguments, which if we're to completely halt progress on the basis that "x, y, and z, might get boosted" then we might as well just stop all development for Dust 514 at all. What about Progressions? I could make an alt and with passive SP alone I could claim loadouts and sell them!!! I could be rich! Oh and what about the keys? Pray tell the free key we get for simply being in a winning match! I could just have all of my alts AFK through a few matches until they each get a victory and earn free officer gear!!! It's absolutely ridiculous. It's the same reason there was so much tinfoil about Team Deploy - the basis that "oh god with team deploy it'd be easier for people to boost! So much more so than 8 man squads!" There isn't enough tin foil in the world, man. EDIT: And really, instead of just whining and complaining about Kain's methods (which worked, I'll remind you) why don't you man up and take the fight directly to him instead of armchair warrioring? You can turn down any idea just by saying "Well, Kain Spero did passive ISK generation in PC". Try it with RoF mods.